11. Adapting to Climate Extremes and Wine Consumer Shifts: Lessons from Dr. A. Botezatu, Texas A&M

Dr. Andreea Botezatu discusses sensory science in winemaking, challenges faced by the Texas industry, and the use of AI to embrace consumer-centricity

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Guest: Dr. Andreea Botezatu, Associate Professor & Extension Specialist, Texas A&M University
Host: Isabelle Lesschaeve, Founder of InnoVinum Academy and Podcast Host

Intoduction

On this episode of We Taste Wine Differently, Isabelle welcomes Dr. Andreea Botezatu—the only extension enologist serving the entire state of Texas and a passionate advocate for blending practical winemaking with sensory science. 

From her roots in Romania, to her move to Canada, and now her role in research and education in Texas, Andreea shares how her experience across commercial cellars, academia, and sensory labs shapes her work today.

Highlights:

• How a sensory scientist’s mindset changes wine research and adds real value for wineries

• The challenge of balancing broad industry needs with targeted, practical research

• U.S. wine industry cycles, the buzz around low- and high-alcohol wines, and why moderation matters

• Bringing wine’s “human story” back into education—why wine isn’t just about chemistry, but also culture and connection

• Adapting research and teaching for Texas wine’s unique climate and grape varieties

• The surprising gaps in sensory education and practical tips for winemakers to trust their senses

• Why wine competitions get the side-eye from sensory scientists!

• The potential of AI to help wineries capture better consumer feedback and run a truly people-centered tasting room

Featured Resources:

• Dr. Andreea Botezatu’s Podcast: The Wine Lab (Tune in for history, art, and the human side of wine)
  
  
• Texas A&M Extension Webinars: Webinar Series (Technical deep-dives for winemakers, open to a global audience)
  
  
• Connect with Dr. Andreea Botezatu: Click Here.
  
  
• InnoVinum Free Resource:
  Discover the five mistakes turning your guests away – and how to fix them!

Takeaway Tips:

1️⃣ Personal development: start by understanding your own sensory perception, your sensory strengths and blind spots, so that you can evaluate wine quality with more objectivity.

2️⃣ Consumer-centric approach: Utilize technology and AI tools not only for production efficiency, but also to collect data from your consumers and tasting room visitors, enabling you to build stronger dialogue with your customers and gain deeper insights.

Are you ready to taste wine differently?

Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with others who may find it valuable.

Want to connect or keep learning? 

Meet Isabelle at innovinum.com and discover how to make sensory science your competitive advantage.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr. Andreea Botezatu: So the sensory scientist thinking helps me paint a more holistic picture of what happens in the research that I do. And then I think wineries appreciate that aspect to because it gives them more information about what consumers actually might want or actually might appreciate rather than change for the sake of change.

[00:00:26] Isabelle Lesschaeve: You've just heard Dr. Andrea Estu. She's the only extension enologist for the whole state of Texas. Our conversation took us from her unique career path blending commercial wine king academic research and sensory science to discussing her current role in supporting her industry stakeholders, and training the future generation of winemakers.

In challenging times, she shared her views on low alcohol. To high alcohol wines. What is missing in [00:01:00] today's conversation about the importance of wine in our society and how AI could help wineries collect better data to inform their decisions? I hope you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

[00:01:16] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Welcome to today's episode of We Taste Wine Differently. The. Podcast for wine professionals eager to challenge the status quo and create truly unforgettable people-centric wine experiences. I'm your host, Isabel Leisha, consumer sensory scientist, educator and testing coach. And today I have the great pleasure to welcome Dr.

Andrea Tu, associate professor and extension specialist at Texas a and m University. Welcome to the show, Andrea.

[00:01:49] Andreea: Thank you, Isabelle. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:52] Isabelle Lesschaeve: So thank you for being with me. Today, Andrea, I really wanted to speak with you because of your dual expertise in [00:02:00] enology, the science of, wine making and sensory science. You know, I used to say the science of wine tasting, but it's really about understanding how people interact with the product, in our case, wine, through their senses.

So, uh, let me share briefly your, your bio for our listeners. , You earned a Bachelor of Science. In Enology and a master of Science in agricultural management, both from the University of Agronomy and Veterinary Sciences in Yasi, Romania. And we crossed path, uh, at Brooke University in Canada where you earned your PhD in enology and you, followed after that with a postdoctoral, uh, fellowship.

You also had several experiences in commercial wine making in Europe and Canada. And now you are serving the Texas wine making industry through applied research as well through, uh, developing educational opportunities for current and prospective wine makers. So, [00:03:00] to me it's truly kind of a unique career path that blends academic research, academia, commercial wine making, and extension services.

So can you share, you know, how these different experiences. Unfolded and,, really help you or prepared you to,, to your role as an extension specialist in, in Texas.

[00:03:20] Andreea: Certainly. So, um, as you mentioned, I started in Romania. I studied horticulture there and I specialized in enology, during university. And then I graduated, I started work as a junior winemaker. it would be assistant winemaker in, um, the United States or North America. And one of the biggest wine making companies, um, in Romania at the time it was called Vinia in y the city where I studied and at the same time did my master's degree in agricultural management. And I worked at Vinia for two years and then I moved to a different production center, um, in a different city as I. [00:04:00] Um, places where I lived, um, that was a research facility for erosion and as a erosion countermeasure, they planted a lot of vineyards and they were making wine. And so I was managing the wine making center there full wine maker. And from there I immigrated to Canada and worked as winemaker at two Canadian wineries, uh, religion, estate and flat rock cellars. And then, um. While I was there at the one of these wineries, I had one harvest I remember where, um, we had a lot of issues with ladybug infestations, and at the time it was a fairly new problem.

There wasn't a lot known. There was some information, but not a lot. but we knew that ladybugs could be a problem. We just didn't know what to do to fix the problem. as a winemaker, I had to deal with that, and that gave me a really, I. Powerful, um, lesson [00:05:00] of how difficult this problem can be. And then, um, I went on to have my son.

So I took a break from the industry to have my son. And, uh, when I was ready to go back, I learned about the PhD position at Brock, where we, as you mentioned, we intersected for a bit, um, with Dr. Gary Pickering and he was studying, um, ladybug Tent and Methoxy Perine. Having had the experience that I had and the perspective as a winemaker, I was really excited to, um, change directions a little bit and see if I can have any contribution from a research perspective.

So I joined Dr. Pickering's lab and I worked on Methoxy Pyrazine Pyrazine for six full years.

[00:05:43] Isabelle Lesschaeve: That's dedication. That's dedication. Yeah.

[00:05:46] Andreea: Are not fun, uh, fun compounds to work with. They're very, very smelly, very stinky and very potent. It takes very little to, make something smell bad. But during that time, , I, , got my training in [00:06:00] sensory science and a lot of it. Experience under the guidance of Dr. Pickering and with different various projects. So I learned a lot there. , I did my research, in wine quality as I mentioned, ladybug hint, and met Parin and remediation. Um, and then once that was done, , this, opportunity at Texas a and m came along and, um, I started as assistant professor here. And, um, as again, as you mentioned, most of my, duties are related to extension, and that's the communication or the contact between academia and industry and translating scientific information everyday talk so that the, um, industry can take it and apply it. Um, educational opportunities, um, all of that communication with the industry, understanding their needs. So

[00:06:54] Isabelle Lesschaeve: So.

[00:06:54] Andreea: all that being said, so that's kind of my history, you asked how [00:07:00] my different perspectives shaped other and, um. I think the biggest part was having had the winemaking experience. Once you have that, you get such a detailed view into the real life of winemakers and how things really happen because in academia, can be a bit disconnected from the real world We get. Can get tunnel vision, I think, and get focused on very specific things, narrower and narrower. And we can sometimes lose sight of the bigger picture. So. Having had that experience helps me, helps keep me very grounded in reality. So that I usually get involved in or choose to be involved when are, are most, most of the time very applicable.

So very applied research that I do the Texas industry in mind. [00:08:00] So serving their needs. Um, and also I try to make it as. Broad within this as possible. Um, I was thinking about that, uh, when you approached me about this podcast and I was thinking that, um, I wish I could do more. Having both the practical experience and the academic experience. I have to choose sometimes, um, what I focus my. and resources on. 'cause as you know, in academia, funding can be a problem and you have only so much time and so much, so many resources. So I have to say no to, to some projects that are really important for certain winemakers here, but because they're so limited in scope, um, I have to focus on the bigger picture and try. Try to serve as many stakeholders as possible. And that kind of pains me. I wish I could do [00:09:00] more. And I wish sometimes I could be more specific, but I can't always. And I think that's from the wine making academia side. Now. we bring the sensory aspect in, of course that helps even more, , in terms of industry and in terms of research as an immunologist. One might be tempted to focus on chemistry or microbiology a lot, but chemistry, you know, we can do a lot of research in enology and we can be very, like I said, very specific and look at very narrow things and we can get a lot of data in terms of chemistry. But for a while there, I think the research stopped there. Um, we see beautiful significant differences or not in our studies, we see that this is higher than that and that's than the other, and so on and so forth. But no, have to take it a step [00:10:00] further. To see. Okay, but that, does that actually make a difference in term of the sensory profile of the wine?

Right? So the chemistry is not always enough. It can give us some insight into what's happening there, but it's not all the insight that we need. Again, from a practical perspective. And then you can look at that information and you can. Putting the sensory scientist hat on. Okay? You can ask several questions.

Okay? Did that make a difference? Right? And then you can try to apply the sensory tests that will tell you if there's a difference or not. And if there's a difference, okay, what is the difference? Can we describe the difference? Can we characterize the difference? So then you take the next step and do you set up the proper sensory, , experiments to do that?

And then finally, okay, we know there's a difference. We know what the difference is. But how do consumers interpret that? How do they receive it? Does it matter to them? Um, are they willing, are they happy about the difference? Are they [00:11:00] unhappy about the difference? Are they willing to pay more? Do they even care? So the sensory scientist. Thinking helps me paint a more holistic picture of what happens in the research that I do. And then I think wineries appreciate that aspect too because it gives them more information about what consumers actually might want or actually might appreciate rather than change for the sake of change or, you know,

[00:11:30] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:11:30] Andreea: for the sake of novelty.

[00:11:32] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Lot of things coming to mind. As you were, explaining your career and your journey, this. Dichotomy between being an academic and being, , an industry professional. , I remember when I joined Brock, I was told, you know, you're too, you're too industry focused.

You know, your, your mind is not academic enough. And then when I went back to industry, that was, you know, you're too academic. You know, it's not how it works. And I think it's, finding the balance. But at the same time, it makes you a [00:12:00] well-rounded professional because you can see both world and, help your , constituents that way.

[00:12:05] Andreea: and I think the fact that this is a, again, an extension focused position, it really helps because those are the expectations for extension. So,

[00:12:14] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:12:14] Andreea: know, a purely academic role might have been. A little bit different. and that's not to say I love doing research. I love it. It's one of my favorite things to do, working with my grad students, um, coming up with new research projects and seeing them through, as I said, through the sensory part as well. Just, I love doing all that, but I also love, uh, working with the industry and, yeah.

[00:12:36] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah. Yeah. So, the wine industry in the us is facing a lot of challenges. Consumption, declining, you know, we are blaming the new generations, but, , there are lots of factors, that have led to this situation. So when you, you're teaching this new generation of, of wine makers, and when you interact with.

The winemakers and the industry in [00:13:00] Texas, what are the current, aspirations, do they take any, actions? How can you help them, , go through that crisis is a word, but, I always think of it as a, as a cycle. So I hope it'll rebound at, at some point. So what is your role in helping them, navigate this, these challenges, but also preparing the future winemaker,, in joining this industry?

[00:13:23] Andreea: That's a very good question. , Yeah, there's been a lot of, . Upheaval in the industry for various reasons. Climate is one of them. Consum changes in attitudes towards alcohol in general, not just wine. The new generation. I think the best I can do for the industry is to keep them informed as much as possible about, , things that are going on.

How? Other people are dealing with these challenges. What new ideas are out there, consumers may be looking for, or, , what their priorities are. And trying to [00:14:00] kind of show the direction in which maybe could focus their efforts. these things tend to be somewhat. Cyclical, like you said. Um, and there are and then they go away. So, I sometimes I wonder myself, how, how long will this last? So this low alcohol trend that we see right now, um, I, I'm not exactly sure how long it will last in terms of low alcohol wines. We're kind of struggling, uh, with the sensory profiles of these wines.

[00:14:35] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:35] Andreea: I know a lot of producers are trying to make low alcohol wines that are. Attractive to consumers. Uh, I'm not really sure we're a hundred percent there yet as a global wine industry, and I also don't know how long this thing will last. I think maybe a better approach to that would be to stop the obsession.

With high alcohol wines that [00:15:00] we've had for a while like this, drive for more sugar, more alcohol, more sugar, more alcohol. I find it baffling. Honestly, I don't really understand it. I never did. not even a, a, a good thing in terms of the sensory profile of the wine. So it's not a pleasant thing to have alcohol.

It's not better for you in any way. So. not really sure why that was, but I think just moderating that and coming down to alcohol levels that we used to see, you know, 30, 40 years ago, like your 11%, your 12%, there's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with that. You know, I think that would be more, uh, a more sustainable approach and just a lot easier to do than to necessarily focus on very low alcohol wine, which is hard to make and you lose a lot of the quality of the wine, uh, when you try to do that. So, yeah, keeping them informed. Um, I do a lot of webinars and podcasts as you know, probably. [00:16:00] Um, and especially in my webinars. Um, those are very technical and I constantly try to keep up to date with new technical, um. that's being made in the world of wine, new things that look promising and inform my, uh, stakeholders here in Texas and naturally everywhere.

'cause those webinars reach, um, the whole world, um, about that. And, um, I've had a lot of great feedback about that. People love, learning those things and, um, being informed about these new, new. Um, advances that happen. Um, and then talking to the industry, hearing, listening to what they have to say, the feedback that they get from consumers.

'cause they, they're there on the ground. They have the tasting rooms, they have the consumers, they see what's happening, what's selling, what's not selling, what people say. in trying to bring it all [00:17:00] together, somehow in my, in my head, uh, makes sense of it all. I think. Educating the new generations of students, not as for the wine making world, but also being consumers of wine, in terms of. Moderation. I, I think moderation is something that lacks or used to lack in the young generations here. I think a lot of young people in North America as opposed to Europe, there's a different culture there about wine in particular, but alcohol, drinking in general, um, because they were, um. Um, forbidden from drinking alcohol up until 21.

Then they, they turn to 21 and they start binge drinking and I think that's not good. I think just getting an education in terms of moderation and how to properly, uh, enjoy. Um, a drink, in [00:18:00] my case, wine. 'cause that's my focus, right. Um, is really important. And also wine is so much more than just an alcoholic drink.

So talking about the social aspect of wine I think is really important. And I think that's something that's quite a bit. And this conversation about wine and health where alcohol, you know, for good reason, but, but I think there's. We are missing an aspect, especially when we talk about wine. Wine has brought people together for thousands of years.

Wine has been there through everything, through our history as human beings, through our um, you know, um, what's the word?

[00:18:47] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Rituals. Yeah.

[00:18:48] Andreea: through art, through history, through everything. And there's just this. It brings people together. That's the best way I, it, it opens minds, [00:19:00] but again, everything in moderation, everything in the right context, everything enjoyed with a meal, with friends.

You know, you don't go out and get drunk on wine on purpose. That's just something that's, shouldn't. Shouldn't happen. I think educating people about that is important as well, to look at wine differently to, to, to see the story behind the product. I think we're missing that, I think we're missing that aspect in this conversation.

[00:19:27] Isabelle Lesschaeve: And how do you include, this, those messages , in your teaching, or do you have the opportunity to do that?

[00:19:33] Andreea: teach a lot about the history of wine. I try to incorporate as much as I can,

[00:19:38] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:39] Andreea: um, you know, from writers or poets or examples of where wine appears in art. Art. And if you listen to my, um, podcast, um, I do a lot of that because I think it's really important to communicate that, um, to the wider audience. a lot about wine history, wine and archeology, wine and art, [00:20:00] um, all of these aspects. Um, I try to bring them all in a 1, 1, 1 place. Um, the wine lab.

[00:20:09] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah. No, that's great. And we'll make sure to give the link to your podcast and your webinars in the show note, because these are , great resources. Absolutely.

[00:20:17] Andreea: Thank you. They're very different. Like I said, the webinars are very technical. Very technical. They're all winemaker focused, and there's a lot of chemistry and processing there. The podcasts are a lot friendlier and they're for the, a much broader audience, but

[00:20:31] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:20:32] Andreea: uh, some science in there as well.

[00:20:34] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah, well, it's called the lab, so you need to have some science.

[00:20:37] Andreea: Yep.

[00:20:39] Isabelle Lesschaeve: So, you talk about, , your extension activities, et cetera, that, , you're focusing on, on research. So moving from lady bug research to hot climate research, which I, I think is, is your focus. You know what? Did you need to, to learn, from, this new environment, you know, being in Canada, ice wine country, [00:21:00] and , and, beautiful wines by the way, , and going to Texas where the challenges are completely different, , how did you adapt to those new conditions and learn, , quickly to serve, your constituents?

[00:21:12] Andreea: Right. So very different, uh, issues. Indeed. Canada is a cool climate, whereas Texas is a hot climate. Canada, high acidity, Texas, low acidity. So very different ends of the spectrum, uh, different varieties that perform well. So, um, what I did was when I started this position, I took the time, um, a few months just to talk to the industry, to just to travel. Texas is a huge state, right? And I'm the only immunologist in the state of Texas. I'm the, the state immunologist

[00:21:43] Isabelle Lesschaeve: All right.

[00:21:44] Andreea: So, um, I had to travel a lot and, um, meet with a lot of people and talk to them and really hear what they had to say and understand what the issues are. I kind of centralized all that information.

I did some [00:22:00] surveys that I sent out to the industry, trying to figure out what their top priorities were in terms of, uh, wine quality and how I can help with that, what I should focus my energy on, it became pretty. pretty quickly that the most important one was managing wine acidity here in pH. Um, that was, that still is, um, a big issue here because with high phs, I'm sure, um, you know, come a lot of problem problems in terms of wine quality and wine stability. So has been a lot of my focus in the years. Since I got here. Also trying to understand Texas consumers, that was something that, uh, hasn't been really been looked at before.

So I did that again through surveys. Uh, that was really interesting. And now I am, um, also branching out into a new and very exciting project, um, for Texas Oak. So,

. People in the industry would like to know [00:23:00] about the quality of Texas Oak and its potential to be used as inc.

Cooperages and making, uh, Texas oak barrels. 'cause you know, there are other, there are American oak barrels and American Oak. Barrel producers. Um, and this is the same species. It's just grown in Texas. It's white oak. So, uh, that's something that, uh, one of my grad students and I are starting to look into this semester.

So very excited. But again, very Texas focused.

[00:23:26] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and that's your role.

[00:23:29] Andreea: Yeah.

[00:23:31] Isabelle Lesschaeve: so when we prepared for this, conversation, . I was curious about how you were incorporating sensory teaching in, into your classes. And you told me, well, there is no formal sensory education, for the winemakers. And I understand, you know, resources are limited, but do you see that as a gap or , are there any other opportunities in, their curriculum for the future winemakers to learn about how to taste wine differently, which is the theme of this podcast, but [00:24:00] also, .

To look at testing data, you know, through a different lens to help them make decisions, you know, when they do trials or when they interact with suppliers, you know, how do you help them navigate that?

[00:24:12] Andreea: Yeah, unfortunately, um, there's very limited opportunity in terms of academic teaching. Um, I would love to teach that course. Um, it's not possible yet. Maybe it

[00:24:24] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:24:25] Andreea: in the future, but what I can do is organize workshops for the industry. What, what I have done sensory focused workshop where we discuss proper evaluation techniques and, um. know, aroma compounds and wine faults. It depends on the workshop. But, uh, there, during these workshops, I try to communicate as much as I can, the importance of proper sensory trials and understanding sensory data and what it can and cannot tell us, or how we should look at it and why it's important for winemakers, why it's important. Um, and it's [00:25:00] important for a number of reasons. I think, um, on the one hand. Well, there are several directions we can take this. just being able to understand the proper setup of, um, of a tasting. You know, if you're, if you're doing a quality evaluation, tasting, to set it up, what your limitations are as a human being and what the limitations may be in terms of the space where you're having the tasting.

Are there any smells, sounds, colors, that are influencing the tasting? Um, how it should be set up, the proper glassware to use, understanding sensory fatigue and palate cleansing and how important that is. Um, another thing. Is understanding one's sensory capacities, in terms of anosmia. I, I think people don't realize, don't know.

They can be anosmic to certain things and um, a lot of them are very surprised, especially when [00:26:00] I do these workshops where I present wines to them. Um, and some of them realize they can't smell actually, some of these things. They, they are very surprised. And so then I try to communicate how important it is to. To know that about yourself and take the appropriate measures if that's the case, you know, speaking of Texas and pH one, just high pH one in general, not just in Texas. You see a lot of mouthiness, for example, that comes with that. Mouthiness is a tricky one, first of all, because you can't really smell it.

You have to taste the wine first. And second of all, 30% of the population is anosmic to that compound. So if you're a wine maker and you're part of that 30% of the population, you'll never know your wine has an issue. And so being aware of that and trying to mitigate that, um, asking other people to help. Pumps, you know, constantly monitoring the, the wine is really, really important. And I think a lot of them are really surprised in the beginning and then really grateful that they [00:27:00] learned about that that they, they can take that with them and, , make the appropriate changes if they need to.

[00:27:07] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah, we talk about that with, Dr. Hildegard Haman, and she was calling, , those, uh. Those make, um, realization, you know, the blind spot, you know, really understanding the blind spot and making sure that you don't taste alone when you realize those, uh,

[00:27:22] Andreea: really important.

[00:27:23] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:23] Andreea: Going back to my research at Brock, um, I was working with Methoxy Parin, as I mentioned, and I was working with a new one that hadn't been investigated before. Dimethyl, methoxy Parin. And I was trying to establish the sensory threshold for that. And during that time, during those experiments, I realized how different we are.

Like it was firsthand experience with a difference in how different we are in our perception of things, because there are people. With a hundred fold difference in, in their percept ability to perceive these compounds. It was quite extraordinary to see. Um, but of course, [00:28:00] that's part of the sensory, sensory world is very, that's very common. It's just, for me, seeing it firsthand was such a, such a aha moment as they say.

[00:28:10] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:28:10] Andreea: I'm very much aware of it and um, I try to communicate that. So maybe you're not an oic, but maybe you perceive things a lot less than other or a lot more. For me, for example, I tend to perceive a volatile acidity and b Brett Mizes a lot stronger than other people.

I realize that about. Me and I try to, to tone myself down because, a lot of the, the, the wines that I smell, um, you know, to me have VA or I can some bread in there. And then most other people, they maybe get it, but it doesn't bother them or doesn't, they don't get it as much as I do. So, it's good to know these things about yourself.

It's really important as a winemaker. And then what about wine competitions and, that's another thing that, [00:29:00] um, I was thinking about when you asked me if these things can clash with each other, the sensory experience and the wine making and the academic, and the only thing I could thought, the only instance I could think of, of them clashing is wine competitions, which. I don't do, um, because I know myself, um, I know myself, uh, I know how much I can accurately and properly do, I'm pretty sure, um, that, know, most people are the same way. I'm very acutely aware of our sensory fatigue, adaptations, biases, all of that. So I have very limited faith in, uh, what can. Accurately be established during the, those wines, wine competitions, generally speaking. Now, there may be some that are better organized than others, but for the ones that have hundreds of samples every [00:30:00] day where you have to push through and push through it, my, my tongue hurts, my teeth hurt. I can't smell anymore. I'm f fuzzy in my brain, and I, I can't expect myself to, to, to be proficient and, and do well. So that's where.

[00:30:19] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Of course, I mean there are, you know, , the good guys and the bad guys. . I've been to competition where, , people were starting their, journey sipping , a cup of coffee and then going and taste wine. And others were, , we had enough breaks. , And I'm currently training with the American Wine Society,, judge Certification just to go through the process.

And I realized that, , their process is pretty well grounded , in good sensory science. In terms of descriptions, in terms of how , they. Discuss the terminology, what they perceive, how they describe the wines and how they rate. But I want to see that in, you know, in the real world.

But, , just relying on three people or five people to [00:31:00] judge a wine and having hundreds of wine, just in a sense, it's kind of a. An outlier in the sensory world. I mean, sensory seventies have hard time understanding it. And, uh, I talked to one judges and said, well, you know, you just push through.

You can't, you can't push through.

[00:31:16] Andreea: I

[00:31:16] Isabelle Lesschaeve: It's uh,

[00:31:17] Andreea: do it, but your evaluations are not gonna be accurate. They're just not.

[00:31:22] Isabelle Lesschaeve: yeah.

[00:31:22] Andreea: I, I don't think they can be as, and, and, and this is us with a lot of training and a lot of awareness of what's happening and how things should be done correctly. But a lot of these competitions have people with no training, no sensory training.

[00:31:38] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Well, one thing that you know, may challenge the competition is that, , I read more and more that the new wine consumers don't really pay attention to those awards and medals, and they rely more on, , the friends recommendation or, or third party recommendation more than those, what used to be like signals of quality.

So that might challenge in a, a [00:32:00] little bit the commercialization and the realization of, um. Of

[00:32:03] Andreea: That's true.

[00:32:04] Isabelle Lesschaeve: competition, so

[00:32:06] Andreea: want a story with a wine,

[00:32:08] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:32:09] Andreea: wine. I think, again, going back to what I was saying earlier, the the social component of wine consumption and the, the story that goes with the wine are really important parts that we sometimes may be missing, and I

[00:32:22] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:32:23] Andreea: a bit more effort should be focused towards that from the winery side

[00:32:29] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

Yeah, well, talking about communication, uh, just want to, , get your perspective on Texas wines. I very unfamiliar with Texas wines. I recognize, and I, I'm due to a visit, so if I gave you, , two minutes to teach me how I could get better acquainted with the wine region and , its wines, , what would you recommend?

[00:32:53] Andreea: Wonderful question. Oh, I love to talk about that. the industries here is relatively new, [00:33:00] maybe 40, 50 years old. Um, but it has grown tremendously. We have about 900 winery permits now and probably about four to 500 producing active producing wineries in the state spread out. Through the state.

Most of them are in the hill country region, um, of the state, Austin and western, western side towards Fredericksburg and in the northern side, um, of this. State around Dallas and then there are some towards the Gulf Coast. Um, and those ones mostly use, um, hybrids that are Pierce's disease resistant, um, to make most of their wine simply because the disease pressure on the eastern side towards the coast is a lot higher than on the western side where it's drier, so there's less. Less disease. Um, most of the grapes are grown in the high plains, which are in the western side of the state, where the elevation is higher, the air is drier, the disease pressure is a lot lower. [00:34:00] Um, so the conditions are much better for growing grapes and most of those grapes then are travel to the wineries to be processed. and Texas has some very interesting varieties. So when it started, of course, um, the. It started with the typical varieties that you might suspect. You know, the Cabernet Sauvignon and the Riesling, the Pinot Noir. But those don't do as well here as they do in cooler regions. Pinot Noir, for example, um, yeah, that doesn't really do great here.

It, it can grow. It just doesn't express fully. so for a long time the industry tried to learn what varieties do best here. And we're at a point now where we're kind of. We figured that out. So the varieties that work best here are usually southern varieties or southern European varieties. So Mentos or OT or Tempranillo or Spanish varieties, Portuguese [00:35:00] varieties, Italian varieties, those do better here. And then varieties that traditionally have a high acidity. Here are a lot mellower. So in terms of white wines, my very favorite white wine in Texas is PPO Blanc and PPO Blanc in Fran. France is usually used for blending because it's really acidic. It, it adds that. Acidity component. But here because of the heat here, it's not as acidic as it is in France.

However, it still maintains some acidity, which makes it ideal for Texas for a hot climate. And I find that the pig pool blancs here are absolutely lovely. So one of my favorite whites, the other, another one would be vermentino for the same reasons. It, it manages to maintain some acidity and some freshness. Um, I love me at Texas Vermentino. It's lovely. Uh, especially in summer [00:36:00] and it's never ending summer in Texas. I'm looking out the window and it's still 35 degrees probably in Atlanta is the same.

[00:36:06] Isabelle Lesschaeve: It's.

[00:36:08] Andreea: Oh, lucky you. Uh, in terms of reds, um, we do have cabernet, souvignon, um, but it's not, it doesn't accumulate a, as many color compounds, b as many tenants as it does in California, for example, or in France. So our cabernet souvignon are lighter, less tanic, less as stringent, um, less. to age for really long periods of time. So they're lovely to drink. They're just very different from what one might expect it one is used to big cabs, you know, super extracted, big, big wines. Ours are not quite like that. we have to not here. That does really, really well. Actually. I think it's one of the. with the most potential in terms of reds in, in the state. But again, it tends to be a [00:37:00] little less, uh, than the worldwide or not that's famous worldwide. Um, it still has a good structure and good body and some good tannins in there.

It is just not, again, not as big as in, in your face as, um, as o other to not. So I would say stylistically Texas reds are a little bit more approachable. Um, the volume is a little You know, the ageability, uh, is a little bit shorter. Um, but they're, they're lovely. They just express differently here. Um, as long as the acidity is managed properly, I think, um, yeah. Great

[00:37:42] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah. And the way you describe those wines, uh, I can see the, the modern wine consumers really, you know, attracted by these wines. Is it to drink, you know, accessible? I don't need to age those wines, uh, because I don't know how to do that and I'm not a wine collector. So

[00:37:56] Andreea: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:57] Isabelle Lesschaeve: this is perfect, perfect opportunity for this, uh, [00:38:00] wine industry and I hope they to capitalize on that.

And they, uh, they have, uh, a growing business.

[00:38:06] Andreea: I hope so too, as long as they also consider the alcohol. So just lowering the alcohol a bit. 'cause sugar, we don't have a problem with that. So we have a ton of sugar in our grapes and all of that gets turned into alcohol or most of it anyway. So

[00:38:18] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:38:19] Andreea: we have quite the, the wines are quite alcoholic. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:23] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Thank you for your recommendation. I, I know what to look for, uh, for Texas Wine when I, I would go and, and visit.

[00:38:30] Andreea: If decide to visit, lemme know. I'd love to host you. Take on on, take You on a Winery tour.

[00:38:36] Isabelle Lesschaeve: I would love to do that. Certainly. My last question would be really, going back to censoring consumer science, and really, , the goal of this podcast is to raise awareness about, , what we do as consumer sensory scientists, but also to bring, , the research or contributions of people like you, uh, to the forefront and to, to the wine industry at the.

On the larger scale. So my [00:39:00] question is, you know, if you had one practical, immediate step that you could offer to our listeners who are winery owners or tasting room managers. So that they could start adopting a more consumer centric practice in the operation, what would that be?

[00:39:16] Andreea: Well for sensory it's easy. You know, get to know yourself. Um, take some sensory classes, watch the read a sensory book. Um, talk to me, call me, email me, ask me. I'm happy to answer questions. Um, for consumers, I think it needs to be an ongoing dialogue. Um, understanding what. The consumer wants, but that's always, that's nothing new.

Understanding what the consumer wants. It's more delivering it. Um, maybe educating consumers is really important to, um, like I said, in terms of consumption, in terms of in terms of social aspects. . I [00:40:00] think AI has a lot of potential here. I think AI can be used , it facilitates this conversation, um, because it can. Directly be targeted at, towards consumers. They can be. I, I mean, AI is such a broad thing, but there are ways of implementing it, uh, where it can have a conversation with your consumers on a platform, on your website, and maybe help, um, get feedback from the consumers in terms of what they liked, what they didn't like in your wine, what they would like more of. Or having that dialogue and keeping track of that data is much easier. Having ai, um, uh. As a tool than having to have people do that. That's a lot of time and a lot of energy. And I think, I think that's an opportunity that could be, could be used by wineries. I, I, I think that's the one step that I would probably suggest, um,

[00:40:53] Isabelle Lesschaeve: No, I, I love that because it's really about bringing technologies to, uh, reduce the barriers between, [00:41:00] you know. Themself as a potential buyer, potential consumer, and the industry, which is quite intimidating. You know, everybody thinks they need to be a sommelier to buy wine. So I think it's, uh, I love this idea of using technology to make it more accessible and remove that.

You know, education barrier and, uh, and, and getting the data as you said, because

[00:41:24] Andreea: Yeah.

[00:41:24] Isabelle Lesschaeve: you have the data, you can look at them, look at patterns , and, , inform your decision. You know, try to adapt your offering, use , the communication, the words that consumers are using to reflect that back to them.

So I love that.

[00:41:39] Andreea: when they drink their wine, when, okay, when did you drink the wine? You bought this and this from us. What was the occasion? Did you have a meal that you paired it with? Was it um, birthday or whatever? You can get so much information and if AI is good at anything, is good at data and centralizing and analyzing and classifying data, so it makes it really easy to access and to [00:42:00] interpret.

[00:42:01] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah, the feedback loop is often something that people don't think about. They just think about the transaction, you know, selling. But the feedback loop from the consumer is where you learn a lot and, uh, definitely love that. So we will work on that. Thank you. Andrea. Any final thought before we wrap up?

[00:42:22] Andreea: My, my main preoccupation these days is really this part of the wine that we forget about that this. Friendship part, this human part, this storytelling part. And, um, if I leave the listeners to anything is I would like to leave them with that and

[00:42:41] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah.

[00:42:42] Andreea: about it as a, as a part of our human experience and not necessarily just an alcoholic drink, um,

[00:42:52] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Yeah. Thank you for that.

[00:42:54] Andreea: And I wanted to say thank you for having me. I mean, we crossed paths when I was [00:43:00] a, phD student. So I was just beginning my academic career and, , now I am a guest on your podcast. So that was, um, I'm very excited. I was very excited about that and very grateful. So thank you for having

[00:43:10] Isabelle Lesschaeve: Oh, you are very welcome, Andrea, and, , yeah, I love your work and, let's continue our conversation. If I can help you out, I would love to do that. And certainly I will make available, your webpage, the webinars, and the podcast link, , into the show notes. And, I wish you all the best, in your continuation of your career and.

Teach those students how to taste and, support the wine industry as you're continue to do so. Thank you so much.

[00:43:35] Andreea: Thank you. Same to you.

[00:43:45] Isabelle Lesschaeve: And that's it for today's episode of. We taste wine differently. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe or follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to learn more about how I can help you and your team implement [00:44:00] a sensory driven tasting experience, visit my website@inov.com. It's I-N-N-O-V-I-N-U m.com and have a gift waiting for you there.

It's a free resource to discover the five mistakes turning guests away, and how to fix them fast. It includes a tool. To assess practices in your testing room, you will also find the direct link to download this paper and the tool in the show notes. A bientot.

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